of the some 70,000 disfellowshippings each year (some 1% of the membership) most were for sexual misconduct.
of these, i think i'm safe to say that very few were witnessed by a third party.
that means that both participants had to voluntarily confess in order to satisfy their 2-witness rule.. know of any that didn't meet this rule?.
Of the some 70,000 disfellowshippings each year (some 1% of the membership) most were for sexual misconduct. Of these, I think I'm safe to say that very few were witnessed by a third party. That means that both participants had to voluntarily confess in order to satisfy their 2-witness rule.
Know of any that didn't meet this rule?
Let's add one more question to the mix -- say that one of them confesses but the other doesn't -- what does the judicial committee do then?
Len
completly ignore disfellowshipped children and never speak at all to them , also what about the children of the disfellowshipped children that are growing up unaware of the "truth " ?
im thinking of writing to my inlaws who have never bothered with our child for two and a half years to tell them to just walk on by if they see us as it would confuse her if they saw us and acted as though nothing has happened .
then they will be good jws and obediant to the watchtower and not blame us for not letting them see her which is what they lie and tell people !.
On the subject of disfellowshipping, they know, of course, that the Bible says "to quit mixing in company with anyone called a brother that is a fornicator or a greedy person or an idolater or a reviler or a drunkard or an extortioner, not even eating with such a man." (1 Cor. 5:11,13)
If one buys into their interpretation that the 'word "anyone" in this verse includes family members not living under their roof...', where, pray tell, do they see that in this verse? Please point this out to me as I don't see it.
Ya'll (hey, I'm a southerner) won't like me for saying this but if one takes that verse literally, and by their spin that this means shunning, then they must shun everyone period. And everyone means whether or not you're living under the same roof.
Well, they don't spin it to mean absolutely everyone because they know it wouldn't be politically correct. That would mean that the shunners and the shunnees could be living under the same roof -- husband vs wife, mother vs child, etc.
Oh, the membership undoubtedly looks at this as a case of a such a merciful governing body. Nothing could be further from the truth. I look at it as a cowardly concession. What gives them the right to add such a concession to that verse. I mean other than playing scriptural hop-scotch -- well, we must honor our parents -- or some such.
It's no different than when I was attending, years ago, one of those two-week classes for elders. The question was raised, "Why don't we disfellowship a member who joins the military? Why, instead, do we say that they've disassociated themselves?" Answer? "Well, brothers, that would shut down Brooklyn in a New York minute! We simply cannot do that, now can we? The U.S. authorities would promptly arrest the officers at Bethel under charges of sedition if we disfellowshipped such people. By announcing they've disassociated themselves, we place the burden on the offending member who joined the military. We can tell the authorities, "Hey, we didn't DF him -- he voluntarily DA'd himself!"
I thought then that headquarters had put their tail between their legs. I then realized they truly weren't relying on Jehovah.
Same thing here would happen if they truly took that verse to "quit mixing" to its absolute meaning. Instead, during their spin, they add the words, "living under the same roof" in order to protect themselves. Otherwise, they'd be attacked with one lawsuit after another. And they know it.
Len
completly ignore disfellowshipped children and never speak at all to them , also what about the children of the disfellowshipped children that are growing up unaware of the "truth " ?
im thinking of writing to my inlaws who have never bothered with our child for two and a half years to tell them to just walk on by if they see us as it would confuse her if they saw us and acted as though nothing has happened .
then they will be good jws and obediant to the watchtower and not blame us for not letting them see her which is what they lie and tell people !.
I saw one of my JW sons recently for the first time in 27 years. He didn't look at me and only shook my hand as I extended it in front of his hand. My wife (not his mother) was appalled.
The occasion that brought us together was the funeral of my other son's wife. This son, Frank, has never been a JW and we have a great relationship. This shunning happened the day before the funeral in the driveway in front of Frank's home.
The following day, however, it was somewhat different. Here we all amongst a crowd of people -- first at the funeral home, then the meal at a private home for all the families -- and the JW son appeared somewhat warm. We talked, though it was me asking whatever questions were asked. At least he answered cordially. How old are your children, what are they up to, what do you do for a living, etc.
The difference in the 2 days was this -- he knew he had an audience. People he didn't know -- strangers would know that I was his dad and if he continued his shunning, one of them may ask him why. To save embarrassment, he put up this charade, a show for them. My wife saw right through it. She says if I die first he will not be invited into our home -- ever.
Len
completly ignore disfellowshipped children and never speak at all to them , also what about the children of the disfellowshipped children that are growing up unaware of the "truth " ?
im thinking of writing to my inlaws who have never bothered with our child for two and a half years to tell them to just walk on by if they see us as it would confuse her if they saw us and acted as though nothing has happened .
then they will be good jws and obediant to the watchtower and not blame us for not letting them see her which is what they lie and tell people !.
Any baptized member who [you fill in this space -- smoking and can't quit, immorality, etc], and deemed unrepentant will be disfellowshipped. Be aware that there is no stated minimum age limit and there are WT documented children as young as 6 who've been baptized. We've seen one as young as 12 who's been DFd.
A disfellowshipped child, for example, would not be permitted to continue a relationship with any family members who do not live within his household. He would be quarantined from baptized grandparents, uncles, aunts, cousins, etc. when regular family gatherings are held. Even brothers and sisters who no longer live within his household would be off-limits to this child.
Len
i'm about halfway through crisis of conscience.
some pretty extraordinary stuff in there.. wondering, aside from telling people not to read "apostate material", has there been any official denial or refutation of the books contents by the watchtower society, official or otherwise?.
side note: franz is a wonderful writer, if a bit repetitive in places.
The last mention I could find about Ray Franz is this Watchtower of 1979, which was not long before his exit.
After a program retracing the two years of efforts required to put up the new building, several recorded messages from Witnesses in other French-speaking lands were heard. Then Raymond Franz, a member of the Governing Body, gave the dedication talk. He highlighted the importance of serving Jehovah with joy. (Neh. 8:10) The vanity of human efforts and ephemeral glory (such as that of Caesar and Napoleon) were contrasted with the joyful work of preaching the good news of Jehovah’s kingdom. The Watchtower, 1979, 1/1 p. 11, Building and Planting in France
I lived in Houston at the time of one of those routine press announcements of an assembly nearby. It was around 1982 and the article also mentioned Ray Franz, the fact that he was disfellowshipped, his former governing body position, and his new book, Crisis of Conscience. It also cited the fact that he lived in Gadsden, Alabama. Since I had left Watchtower only 4 years earlier I picked up the phone, got his number, and called him. We had an hour-long discussion and exchanged a few letters. I bought my copy of his book as it became available in Houston and was glad because of the emotional support it gave.
May you R.I.P. Raymond Franz. Len
stop asking decide for yourself!
today i uploaded a new article highlighting the method of choice by watchtowers current governing body for dealing with problematic details haunting its doctrines.
moving forward the current governing body will expand on this theme.
Watchtower appears stagnant because -- well -- it is stagnant. Put yourself in the shoes of the GB. In order to be creative, their writer zombies must say things differently. When they do that, they know what they say is under the microscope of an army of critics -- enemies and apostates as they like to call them.
Critics, since the early 90s have had the WT Library CD, which the GB probably regrets. This has become a two-edged sword, helping the more serious members of their flock research certain teachings as they prepare talks and arguments. However, the CD has hugely reinforced the army of critics as they can now quote verbatim snippets of now embarrassing and undeniable statements they've made in the past. This will never stop since the cow is now out of the barn.
Change something that's been written before (impossible to do) and critics will rightly view that as a contradiction. No sooner than critics hear it, critics will publish it, not only here but in the growing multitude of excellent Internet sites.
Change something, and they then must lean on their New Light alibi -- and that worn out catchphrase is not ringing true any longer with members who have a decent amount of gray matter.
Stagnant? YES SIREE, BOB! You can also call it paralysis.
Len
the jw stood before the pearly gates his face was scarred and old,.
he stood before his maker for admission to the fold, .
well what have you done st peter asked to gain admission here?
That's a good 'um, Slim.
NewChapter and BandOnTheRun -- you've both added a meaningful chapter to this thread. The Society, in all its self-serving wisdom, just doesn't get what worldly society gets.
Len
This, from Wiki: Nicotine use is not regulated in competitive sports programs, yet the drug has been shown to have a significant beneficial effect on athletic performance.
Perhaps these bicycle competitors in that famous France road race during the 1920s knew something most of us don't know.
The other article from Wiki, specifically about Nicotine, is very enlightening. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicotine
By itself, absent the traditional vehicle -- tobacco -- has some health and wellness benefits. It also appears that it's not as addictive without the tobacco. It has some drawbacks as well, so the reader needs to weigh the pros and cons. If you're a JW, however, you won't need to do that as the Society has already done that for you. Isn't it nice to have Big Brother?
I won't be starting my nicotine fixes anytime soon -- but I also won't be judging others about it.
Len
i have smoked, i quit, but now enjoy alternatives such as e-cigs, snus, and even the gum.
i find that nicotine has a nice mental enhancement, has several medical benefits and actually may help individuals to relax and focus.
now the question is this, why does the wts have such a fetish with nicotine?
Our friend at JWfacts has a very good list, with references, of all (or most) disfellowshipping offenses. I didn't see any reference to the eCigarette or the nicotine gum, etc.
However, Watchtower's argument will be the addictive part of the nicotine, despite the fact that it is not an illicit (in U.S., anyway) drug.
Why does tobacco have such a grip? Researchers have discovered a number of reasons: (1) Tobacco products can be as addictive as illicit drugs. (2) Inhaled nicotine may reach the brain in just seven seconds. (3) Smoking is often woven into a person’s life by its regular association with eating, drinking, conversing, the relief of stress, and so on.
Yet, as Earline and Frank have shown, it is possible to quit this harmful addiction. If you smoke but want to stop, reading the following articles may well be the start of a new way of life for you. Awake!, 5/10 p. 3
Len
